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Message:	[quote author=don s board=general thread=41 post=192 time=1334368090]Hi Anon: Over at the thread, "The Richard Wiseman Challenge", Anon wrote the following: "Don, why don't you address what Andy said when he wrote, "I really don't understand why you assume I or many other philosophers or scientists have not already taken this 'challenge.'"? Do you deny that you make that assumption?" Anon, it's not so much my assumption as the conclusion of a great deal of research. You can't imagine how much I hope I'm wrong. Just a month ago, I wrote Dean Radin, saying that I had never been able to find any specifics as to why psi is so extraordinary. I figured if there's anybody in the world who has an exhaustive knowledge of what psi skeptics have written, it would be him. He kindly wrote back and said he's never seen more than a few, sparse, minimal examples, mostly of the kind I listed already - Arthur Reber wrote me, and kept invoking the "inverse square law" and ended by repeating over and over again, "the world just doesn't work that way" I have conversations over the years with skeptics, read skeptic journals and books, poured over skeptic websites, and have never found more than 2 or 3 specifics as to why psi isn't possible (I'm not talking about criticism of experiments - that's everywhere and almost always where psi skeptics conclude their critique). And actually, the specifics of criticism is not what the "RW Challenge" is about. I've been curious for ages to hear or see someone think through the implications of what psi might mean for science - physics, biology or whatever. I've never seen it. Given that I've been curious for decades and have never found it, I thought perhaps putting the question out there, in this fashion, might help me find someone willing to explain it to me. Sometimes people have taken the challenge, and then mostly repeat what you can find in James Alcock's writings or on James Randi's site - "if there was psi, there'd be no casinos, nobody would be able to lie, etc etc." I don't know what is wrong about the way I'm wording the challenge, but I thought I was making it clear that's not what I'm asking. All I said was if Wiseman is correct, what if we take him at his word? I assume along with that, that this means in the world as we commonly experience it and understand it, what if psi is happening on some level we're ordinarily not aware of. But maybe I failed to make it clear. Anyway, in all the years of questioning - looking in bookstores, libraries, talking to skeptics, communicating on and searching the net, I've actually never seen anything like this. And Dean Radin hasn't either. So I am not sure why you think it is so terrible of me to offer this challenge, and to assume that Andy is right in implying that many others have already worked through this. Prove me wrong, please. (please note I'm not referring to anything in the "Shaving Science" paper or "through the eyes of infinity" or anything like that. And I'm not talking about Andy's last post on the "RW Challenge" thread, where he argues with my points. I'm tired after so many years of arguing about these things. I just want to hear someone explain to me, in detail, what are the implications for science - again, in detail - in physics, biology, neuroscience, psychology, astronomy, etc - of how things would change, radically, in an extraordinary way - if psi were the case. In regard to mutations, laws of nature, perception, language, memory, volition, emotion, and a few dozen other areas. Please, prove me wrong. Has it been done and somehow I've missed it? Is there a site where someone has worked through all this? I would be immensely grateful, as it is something that has puzzled me for years. Please enter a link to the site or sites where this has been done. I would greatly appreciate it. [/quote] Expand
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Posted by don s on Apr 13, 2012, 8:48pm

Hi Anon:

Over at the thread, "The Richard Wiseman Challenge", Anon wrote the following:

"Don, why don't you address what Andy said when he wrote, "I really don't understand why you assume I or many other philosophers or scientists have not already taken this 'challenge.'"?

Do you deny that you make that assumption?"

Anon, it's not so much my assumption as the conclusion of a great deal of research. You can't imagine how much I hope I'm wrong. Just a month ago, I wrote Dean Radin, saying that I had never been able to find any specifics as to why psi is so extraordinary. I figured if there's anybody in the world who has an exhaustive knowledge of what psi skeptics have written, it would be him. He kindly wrote back and said he's never seen more than a few, sparse, minimal examples, mostly of the kind I listed already - Arthur Reber wrote me, and kept invoking the "inverse square law" and ended by repeating over and over again, "the world just doesn't work that way" I have conversations over the years with skeptics, read skeptic journals and books, poured over skeptic websites, and have never found more than 2 or 3 specifics as to why psi isn't possible (I'm not talking about criticism of experiments - that's everywhere and almost always where psi skeptics conclude their critique).

And actually, the specifics of criticism is not what the "RW Challenge" is about. I've been curious for ages to hear or see someone think through the implications of what psi might mean for science - physics, biology or whatever. I've never seen it.

Given that I've been curious for decades and have never found it, I thought perhaps putting the question out there, in this fashion, might help me find someone willing to explain it to me.

Sometimes people have taken the challenge, and then mostly repeat what you can find in James Alcock's writings or on James Randi's site - "if there was psi, there'd be no casinos, nobody would be able to lie, etc etc."

I don't know what is wrong about the way I'm wording the challenge, but I thought I was making it clear that's not what I'm asking. All I said was if Wiseman is correct, what if we take him at his word? I assume along with that, that this means in the world as we commonly experience it and understand it, what if psi is happening on some level we're ordinarily not aware of. But maybe I failed to make it clear.

Anyway, in all the years of questioning - looking in bookstores, libraries, talking to skeptics, communicating on and searching the net, I've actually never seen anything like this. And Dean Radin hasn't either.

So I am not sure why you think it is so terrible of me to offer this challenge, and to assume that Andy is right in implying that many others have already worked through this.

Prove me wrong, please. (please note I'm not referring to anything in the "Shaving Science" paper or "through the eyes of infinity" or anything like that.

And I'm not talking about Andy's last post on the "RW Challenge" thread, where he argues with my points. I'm tired after so many years of arguing about these things. I just want to hear someone explain to me, in detail, what are the implications for science - again, in detail - in physics, biology, neuroscience, psychology, astronomy, etc - of how things would change, radically, in an extraordinary way - if psi were the case. In regard to mutations, laws of nature, perception, language, memory, volition, emotion, and a few dozen other areas.

Please, prove me wrong. Has it been done and somehow I've missed it? Is there a site where someone has worked through all this? I would be immensely grateful, as it is something that has puzzled me for years.

Please enter a link to the site or sites where this has been done. I would greatly appreciate it.

Posted by Andy Smith on Apr 13, 2012, 11:20pm

If it hasn't been done, it's probably because most people don't believe in it strongly enough to make it worthwhile to go to all that effort. You seem to want a very detailed review of all the possible areas that psi could impact. Someone is going to have to believe in it very strongly to go to all trouble.

There has been a lot of work from the opposite direction, i.e., formulating a worldview that would be consistent with psi phenomena, particularly work in physics involving extra dimensions of space.

If you aren't already familiar with this reference you ought to check it out:

Stokes DM (1997) The Nature of Mind: Parapsychology and the Role of Consciousness in the Physical World. New York: McFarland and Co.

Though it's book, I found the whole manuscript available on the web a few years ago. I found this a very helpful discussion, though I can't remember if he addressed the question you're asking.

Posted by don s on Apr 14, 2012, 10:21am

Hi Andy:

Yes, I agree; belief is part of it.

I've heard of stokes and came across the book some years ago, but never looked at it. It looks interesting; i'll take a look when I get the chance.

Thanks much,
Don

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